Staggered start

[Alan]

I like the staggered starts, they prevent any queuing due to bottle necks of a large field. But I think that any of the Vets and Ladies that thought they were capable of challenging for, say , the top 20 places, should have been invited to join the Seniors, and start with them. Although a Vet nor a lady won it, some were still competing at the sharp end for the top places. It meant that the race was a bit like a time trial.
Anyone else agree, disagree with this?

[Murdo ~ the other one]

Interesting thought. How might the likes of Lucy, Thomas, Roger, and others up at the sharp end of the 6:00 and 7:00 starters have fared if they had started at 8:00? Would they have done better if amongst the fast young whipper-snappers in the 8:00 start? Would they have wanted to start @ 8:00, or happy with the way things were?

But if those @ the sharp end of these categories got 8:00 starts then the individual categories would be split up, so folk wouldn't know where they were as against other folk in their category which I think could make it very complicated.

Murdo, the other one

[Tim]

Apr 28, 2010 7:48:59 GMT Murdo ~ the other one said:

Interesting thought. How might the likes of Lucy, Thomas, Roger, and others up at the sharp end of the 6:00 and 7:00 starters have fared if they had started at 8:00? Would they have done better if amongst the fast young whipper-snappers in the 8:00 start? Would they have wanted to start @ 8:00, or happy with the way things were?

But if those @ the sharp end of these categories got 8:00 starts then the individual categories would be split up, so folk wouldn't know where they were as against other folk in their category which I think could make it very complicated.

Murdo, the other one

Then again, unless you ask someone which category they're in (or it's obvious by the amount of grey hair) you generally don't know what category other runners are in so I'm not sure that would matter too much. You will know however that generally runners who are around you are your running "peers" and that is what you want to know.

It could get complicated at the finish though as marrying up individual runner's start times with their finish time would have to be done on a one-by-one basis rather than a simple age category basis.

One possible solution would be to use the chips to register the runners at the start. Note, just register, not use them for a start time. This way the starting group would all be working off of a single start time.

If this was done potentially runners could be allowed to choose their start time based on experience. This would give fast old farts a chance to run with their running peers and slow youngsters to have an earlier start.

It might not be possible to allow everyone to start when they wanted but I think it should at least be possible using the chips to move away from the strict segregation by category.

[murdo]

Alan makes an interesting point on an issue where I don't believe there is a perfect solution. There is merit in his suggestion but it also raises problems.

The first is the question of selecting those who might wish to be "promoted" to a different start time. If it is the runners themselves, how do the organisers reject those who are changing start time for social rather than athletic reasons? I think that would lead to unecessary friction.

Secondly, it takes away the actual category "race", and there is more competition in the various categories than there is for the overall victory.

Thirdly, when a few MVs or elite Fs start with the Ms, then you are back to the "time trial" scenario between them and those who start with their category. A Female runner could be having a decent run and finish with something left in the tank, to find out she had lost first place by 5 seconds to someone starting at a different time.

For every runner who would like to run with different category there are others who were pleased that they could see exactly who they were racing against. On Saturday, two MV runners made that specific point to me in praising the new arrangement and urging us to keep it. They said that, in previous years, when starting with the Ms they never knew who they were competing against.

As Tim says, it may well be technically feasible to mix folk up, but I think it would be an organisational nightmare on the day. I believe strongly that any good race organisation should consider the runners' wishes first and sort out any logistical problems that arise. We would do so in this case if there was an overwhelming case in favour of doing so. However, as there are advantages to runners in not allowing categories to mix, I think the 2010 arrangement is (marginally) preferable.

[Alan Lucker]

Thanks for your explanation Murdo.

From my own preference; and I understand that any decisions on this has to be for the good of the entire field; I think that the m 40 runners (or at least the faster ones) should start with the males. I say this because it is highly likely that a m40 (come to that a Female or a super vet, i.e. Lizzie Hawker, Marco olmo) could one year win this race. I'm sure the male or female that crossed the line first would be gutted to find out that they lost to someone they weren't directly racing. Alas that will never be me, but I am just thinking that the overall Race should take preference over each category (within the race).

Sorry to be critical after such a great day, and I respect the event in its entirety, it is just one tweak that I think would help keep it a true Race and less a category race.

Lastly thanks Murdo and all the helpers you did a great job.

[Debs MC]

I loved the staggered start. Especially when approaching Beinglas and a female walker said: "It's good to see the girls leading the field". I didn't correct her

[daviehall]

I would oppose any of the "favourites" for the various age groups being allowed to move into other starts, however, first timers or slower runners who are worried about their completion times being within the 9pm cut-off could be allowed to start earlier. At the end of they day they are never going to affect the overall results as, even if they were flying, they would still be placed according to their time.

[Colin]

I agree with davie...i finished with just 9 minutes to spare and would have been inconsolable if i had scraped over the 13 hr time limit for my start group (8am). So i think that runners who feel they would be in danger of finishing outside of the limit could be given the option of starting in an earlier group.

Colin

[murdo]

The arguments made by Alan, Davie, and Colin in favour of more flexibility in the staggered starts are all legitimate and well made. However, they illustrate the point made in my earlier post - if we acceeded to all these requests we would end up with chaos - some runners starting before their allotted start time, others starting later, and some in between. Athletes would have no idea who they were actually racing against and every category in the event would become a time trial.

The Fling goes out of its way to keep things simple and avoid unnecessary rules. As you may have seen we have listed all those who made it through the Bein Glas "gate" as finishers even where they slipped outside the 9pm race limit. However, we have to have some system on starting and I remain convinced that the current method best serves most runners.

[Alayne]

I can understand the point made about allowing those no confident of finishing in time to start earlier but I think this could cause problems with people choosing to start earlier to run with people they know. Keeping it without choice is simpler I think and I'm sure the organiser's have enough to contend with without keeping track of who's running when.

It could also end up with a huge number in the first start and maybe causing problems with support etc. The way it was I think the starts were pretty well balanced in terms of numbers which is ideal.

On a similar note to Debs...the staggered starts are great for putting us ladies up the front as well (for some time anyway!). I think it confused a lot of walkers though who, because of the gaps between runners, couldn't work out if it was a race or not. I guess they would have expected more people to come at once and not be thinking we'd already run for 30+ miles and so quite spread out!

I think top organisation Murdo and works great how it is!

[Outsider]

Have you considered taking the sharp end runners regardless of sex/age that are say within 1.5hrs of the winning time.

They could be eligible to invitation only in 2011 for the 8am start.

That would reduce social numbers and keep the field competitive,
and give the competitors the option

[Alan Lucker]

Maybe inviting the top 20 from any previous race for the vets and ladies. Plus a few wild cards with known pedigree. These could all start with the seniors 8 am start time. This way all of the likely top 10 will be competing against each other. It would preserve the idea that the overall win is the most important part of any race, and categorie wins a lower priority.

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