Limit numbers or ban support

[georger]

We had 3 realy teams and 3 solo runners from club in the Fling, and last night at our AGM we only had one topic of conversation.

Everyone loved it and thats runners and partners and kids for lots it was a family day out.

Yes for some of us it was a solo no support run , but for others it was their first taste of the WHW the first time they had seen folks run that kind of distance and a real introduction to ultra running.

It would be a real shame to limit relay numbers or support for those doing their first ultra.

I think only way forward is to get a feild sorted at Beinglass where parking is charged for.

Some great ideas above I just hope some local business person can see the potential.

[Colin McIntyre]

This was my first fling and my first Ultra and i really enjoyed it so big thanks to all. One idea might be to limit the places with back up and give first time runners first refusal . then open it up to the rest of the runners.

I personally had friends at check points, after running i didnt feel it necessarry at balmaha,rowardennan but come inversnaid it was nice to be given some encouragement. By the time i got to Beinglas i was having bother with my knee. There were spectators here encouraging runners and gave me a wee lift to carry on. I also managed to scrounge some pain killers off some nice people at Carmyle cottage.

i dont think there is a right or wrong answer to this but agree some sort of change may be necessarry. One last point, my support could not make it from inversnaid to beinglas in the time it took me to run it because of the traffic so i missed them anyway.

thanks

colin

[Robmac]

I did my first fling on Saturday, what a great race, and thanks to the organisers, supporters and fellow runners.

I used support and was glad of it, but I can see the challenge of doing it self supported.

Just two points I’d like to make, firstly, it would be interesting to know how many people supporting and following the fling spent any money at the Drovers and Beinglas farm.

Secondly, how many of us frequent these places on training runs and other trips up the west highland way?

Are these businesses missing a trick? I’m sure if they came on board, all of us involved would more then happy to put some more custom their way

Thanks again for a great day.

[fatherjack]

This was my first ultra, I used the bag drops and found they worked just fine. I think most runners prepared to tackle the distance would find this system more than adequate, if it was a condition of entry.
I do think that discontinuing the relay race would be a negative move, it broadens the appeal. I'd bet there are more than a few relay runners thinking about doing the whole race next year.
I'm sure that the Fling can continue to grow, after all this is an area that promotes tourism, surely more visitors = more revenue and everyone can benefit in the long run (pardon the pun!)
Maybe a small charge for parking with the entry fee for relay teams, with passes issued, or as suggested a charge on the day itself.

[Tim]

Apr 28, 2009 11:48:04 GMT fatherjack said:

This was my first ultra, I used the bag drops and found they worked just fine. I think most runners prepared to tackle the distance would find this system more than adequate, if it was a condition of entry.
I do think that discontinuing the relay race would be a negative move, it broadens the appeal. I'd bet there are more than a few relay runners thinking about doing the whole race next year.
I'm sure that the Fling can continue to grow, after all this is an area that promotes tourism, surely more visitors = more revenue and everyone can benefit in the long run (pardon the pun!)

Ah, but you're forgetting traditional highland "hospitality". I'm afraid it's still by no means unusual to find the "all tourists are bl**dy nuisances" attitude amongst those who ought to be profiting from tourism.

Of course we ought to be promoting tourism but there's a long history of not investing in any infrastructure along the A82. The goat track (i.e. the A82) up the side of the loch is way overdue for upgrade and a few well placed car parks would make a huge difference to accessing the hills and tourist spending in the area.

Maybe a small charge for parking with the entry fee for relay teams, with passes issued, or as suggested a charge on the day itself.

I think (or rather I hope) it will come to that. I've always been uncomfortable with using the Drover's car park for training runs and feel that both for training and the race we need to find an alternative. Buying a meal there post run doesn't really compensate the proprietor fully for 5 hours use of a private car park.

[Drama Queen]

After listen to the advice of my Esteemed Colleague, Tim aka Muriel, I am re-posting this under this thread.

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I would like to see increases in Entry Fees spent in ways that will help the Marshalls and the growth of the Race and that is in the Race providing food and fluid to supplement drop bags. Yes folks, I am suggesting that the way forward might be to ban Support Teams. Take support teams out of the equation and the Race can continue to grow as much as it likes.

I do believe that a number of support teams caused trouble on Saturday. Unfortunately, that is going to happening when you have so many people trying to get into a restricted space. Particularly where someone is trying to earn a living.

I think the Race should provide food and fluid. This means much fewer people trying to access these checkpoint areas, which will also make it easier for Marshalls to do their job as they won't be off trying to sort out parking difficulties caused by some inconsiderate sod.

I know that it is different and many won't like it as they won't be able to get their specific thing but can I remind everyone that drop bags will be available for those indespensible nick-nacks.

Support Teams, cars and checkpoint access are the only things that could lead to a restriction on numbers in the Race.

[Allan H]

Sorry, but I am completely in the other camp.
I'm sure I could complete the race without support, but not sure I want to. My friends who make up my support crew enjoy the day, they enjoy being at check points and seeing other runners, and they enjoy seeing me, hopefully ahead of schedule.
For me, it is a major part of my phsycological approach to think that I will see a known face soon, and that they will have the food I feel like available.
A previous post mentioned the number of people welcoming the finishers. Without support, this would be drastically reduced. I'm sure that I would find it a lot harder to get Susan to drop me at Milngavie in the early hours, then pick me up at Tyndrum 12 hours later. Coming from the east coast, its not a ten minute drive.
Finally, the arguement about the 'level playing field'. I didn't know it was uneven. Everyone has the right to a support crew at the moment. I accept that, for some, persuading friends or family to act as support may be difficult. That is a personal issue, not an advantage given to some by the race organiser.
The 'Fling' in 2007 was the first Ultra I ever ran, and it is an event that I hold dear to my heart. I believe in and respect the ethos of the race, but feel that banning support would deter more converts than it would attract.

[Drama Quuen]

I know exactly where you are coming from Al the Pal. I like getting cheered on, seeing friendly faces, getting real food etc as well...but, I saw the mess left at Rowardennan, I've heard of the problems that there were at Beinglas Farm and the Drovers Inn.

I think the question being posed is "Do we continue to go unrestricted on numbers and without rules?". I can't see how that can happen without Murdo and Ellen getting an army of helpers, re-structuring start times further, limiting the number of support that anyone can have etc etc. All are an administration nightmare.

So, as far as I see it, if you want support teams then the numbers have to be restricted.

[Fling marshall Geraldine]

Well it would appear Murdo's question has sparked a heated debate.

What can I say. I was the marshall in charge at Beinglas on Saturday and I have to say that I was distressed that I had to send my para medic and runner support to deal with car parking issues rather than be available for runners in need.

Sadly as the race is in large numbers it attracts the more selfish of runners. One lady while tending to her runner stated "I don't care about moaning about parking, I don't care if I get clamped you are the most important person, you need is the most important thing" while the sentiment towards the runner is touching it is exactly that kind of attitude that will get the race banned.

As with the West Highland way race we are relying on the support of the police to continue the races and if they are called to deal with complaints then they will have no alternative but to consider canceling the race. It really does annoy me when a certain few risk a wonderful event for so many people.

I note the suggestions about the owner providing a field but what happens if the weather is bad and the field is destroyed by vehicles - does the race compensate the owner for the damage?

In March this year Mark ran the Connemara ultra marathon and the nature of the route does not allow support to bring vehicles to the race. What the race organises is buses for the support at frequent intervals - could this be an option? thus the runners could get the support they enjoy and the issue of traffic is addressed.

I have to say I loved the relaxed atmosphere of the Fling and I would be sorry for it not to continue that way but unless you vet every runner for selfish tendencies you are going to have to implement some level of control. If people continue with the attitude like the woman above that the runner are more important than anything else then there is a very real chance no-one will get to run the race and I for one would think that was a terrible shame.

Anyway rant over as I am a happy bunny as Mark gave me his North Face lip balm and I am like a kid at Xmas with a new toy!!

[Allan H]

Couple of points from me this time. Looking historically, the number of finishers each year has except for 2007-2008, more than doubled every year. Should this continue, then over 600 people, not counting relay teams, would enter next year. Murdo and Ellen, you are victims of your own success, but this number, with or without support, would not be safe to administer, so a cap of some sort may have to be put in place.
As DQ pointed out, the question is
""Do we continue to go unrestricted on numbers and without rules?". "
My answer to that would, unfortunately, be no. There are going to have to be some sort of cap, and maybe rules introduced, and, for my money, the use of support crews should remain discretionary.

[johnk]

Apr 28, 2009 18:18:15 GMT @Allan H said:

I believe in and respect the ethos of the race, but feel that banning support would deter more converts than it would attract.

This would therefore mean that the race would hopefully become self regulating on numbers and allow it to grow at a more managble level, and maybe help it`s long term future without support crews antagonising locals.

TBH there is no easy solution, but the biggest problem for this and many other popular events is not the competitors but the support crews, which for the Fling at least are totally unecessary, given the cameraderia amoungst the competitors and the facility for bag drops.

I have now done the Fling three times and love being a part of it and it saddens me to see that these issues have now raised there head, which in the worst case scenario will threaten the future of the race unless an answer can be found

Just posting my views in hope they are helpfull and not winding anybody up.

JohnK

[daviehall]

A few suggestions that may or may not be practical:
Relay; Start at 6am. I appreciate this would spread the runners further along the course and lengthen the time the finish would be manned, but it would get the cars and supporters away from the checkpoints earlier allowing the "53 milers" support easier access to the CPs.
Entry: Not talking here about excluding entries for lack of experience as Dario does for the big one, but if entries required the same info and are then scrutinised to allow support for those who really require it, and exclude it for those who don't need it, a reduction in the numbers are still possible. However, bear in mind that club-mates, family and friends will still want to watch and no matter what the race organisers do,they will still be there.
Parking: can support be asked to park somewhere else and car share to specific points to meet runners..... probably difficult to ID those wanting to be at certain places at certain times, but would be possible for some. Would the Drover's be more welcoming if support dined there prior to going to the CP? Marshall to supervise.
Agree a field for parking at Beinn Glas would be fine if the weather was ok but rain would be a problem. Not that we ever have rain on the lochside!

[daviehall]

Just an additional thought; a 6am start for the relay would also speed things up for them as us auld yins wouldn't be in the way. And it would be less demoralising for us!

[John Millen]

I'm just wondering if there is a scientific way of working this out? If the runners were staggered at the start in terms of times rather than age/gender then maybe the field would be more spread out rather than converge at checkpoints at the same time.

Someone more clever than me needs to do the maths though!

Just a though
Cheers

John

[peter]

I think that the fling should be only solo runners and no one else, the reason being i think that the relay running started as a result of trying to get people involved and add numbers now that we dont need numbers stop the relay runners and stop the back up crews ! This race, has become special to alot of runners and it shouldnt slip away it has become special to us runners and become the top distance race in britain so lets not let it go the way of some of the other top races and become elitist I LOVE THE FLING dont change it PLEASE.
PS. I would pay alot more money for entry to keep it the same.